Work for free is an insult, a bit of discount maybe or an equal exchange for something I need is a fair request and even I have asked this in the past.
People always ask for free work on forums, I just banned a user last night on my forum for not reading the rules and asking for free website design. His first post was a request for a free website, he didn't bother to say hi or contribute to the forum at all, cheeky monkey!! BANNED
I get loads and loads of requests for links from my website and by blog etc. So I thought here is a chance, i will redesign the header graphic of my blog, and in return, promote a designer via a blog post, and a link from my favourite site or blogroll links on my blog.
I was so surprised that no-one took me up on the offer. I guess it was because they all feel like you.
here is the thing though, i did it to benefit, not myself so much as I can pay a few quid for a poxy header graphic redesign, I thought it would really be ebficial to someone starting out to have such a powerfull link to their site, and more importantly, such exposure for their work. I get about 20,000 uniques to my blog every month
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OWG is old, Bald and Welsh, and provides Seo From Wales - he also thinks Rugby is the god of sports
Loved the Video Eagle. As a sometime writer myself, it's amazing how little money you can actually make from it. To answer your question, I Would Not work for free (unless they paid me for it ).
I once got a call from a guy who wanted me to do loads of work for him free of charge because he couldn't be bothered to do the work himself and he had little money as he needed to pay his mortgage. He was promising to pay a percentage of the profits from selling is books.
I politely told him that I wasn't the person for him as I needed to pay my mortgage.
I think that fair exchange is no robbery. I quite often barter for things or try to help people I like on a you-scratch-my-back... basis.
If someone gives me something for free, their time, or efforts, or a useful tool, then I do make an effort to do them a useful favour back. Sometimes I initiate the process. I gave some help for free to someone over the last couple of days and today he offered me a treat that I would have loved to take him up on. Unfortunately I'm not really in a position to travel several thousand miles to get it. But it's the thought that counts.
I think it's all about respect. I wouldn't approach someone and ask them for a freebie, and I don't like it very much when people do that to me.
here is the thing though, i did it to benefit, not myself so much as I can pay a few quid for a poxy header graphic redesign, I thought it would really be ebficial to someone starting out to have such a powerfull link to their site, and more importantly, such exposure for their work. I get about 20,000 uniques to my blog every month
20K uniques a day will pay for itself 10 fold in exchange for a standard jpg or a rotating Gif graphic web banner...it's a no brainer!!!
I am needing to revamp both my site and my blog so have let it go for the time being. Cobblers kids have the worse shoes syndrome
To put my comment above in context (I was a bit harash) - I alluded to special. 20k uniques is pretty special, lol
That said, right now, I'd be very hard to convince to do anything for barter - and I wonder if others feel the same (bit more under pressure financially, et al) - and if that has biased opinions?
By offering goods or services you would normally earn money for, in exchange you can receive goods and services you would normally spend money for.
Bartering is just cutting out the middle man (money).
I don't disagree that barter can be healthy
However, at the moment, the main issue for a lot of small businesses is cashflow - particularly if you have large(r) customers who are taking a err relaxed approach to their invoices (not that we are stuck in that trap at the moment - we're lucky to have good payers!)
Personally I don't tend to barter for our services, because the offers we tend to get are silly.
However, when it comes down to more minor things - and sensible requests - I agree theres a time and a place for it!
I agree, Matt, cash flow is so important - although a lot of people don't seem to understand that. I'm almost evangelical on the subject of understanding cash flow.
I think it's such a pity when good little businesses go bust because of cash flow issues. Perhaps someone else in their supply chain has defaulted or perhaps it's a case of the 'don't care about other people' attitude. Too often it's a case of the business owner not understanding cash flow and then overextending themselves.
(This is a personal gripe because I got totally sick of someone showing up on a regular basis begging me to bail them out yet again. Enough! I won't do it any more. Go to jail, let the business fold, I can't be responsible for all that sh!t any more. Just because we've got our cash flow sorted doesn't mean we're a bottomless pit for others to use.)
Yeah, I also agree with you on the idea of sensible requests. Most are insulting or just plain daft.
That's a very interesting point, Ray. But I'm curious to know how (or if) people put non-cash transactions through the books.
Maybe someone could come and fix my dripping tap and I'll give them a nice meal in return. Does that go through the books?
What about links swaps in that case? Supposing someone sold links for £xxx but agreed to give away a link in exchange for a widget design?
I understand what you're getting at but I don't think that people would put this this through their books and I don't see how any relevant laws on the issue could be policed either.
Some might perceive it as the grey economy, but what's the difference between that and friends doing favours for each other?
For example. In a tax investigation you are seen to have a website but there are no charges for website hosting, a question will be asked. If it is because a barter occurred, they will insist on notional invoices being raised to ensure there is no loss of VAT to the treasury (if one is VAT registered and one isn't).
People often think transactions are hidden but the reality is that most can be seen if they happen regularly. It is like other undisclosed transactions, greed will be the undoing of the scheme. Odd taps fixed for a meal are one thing, but regular banner advertising that is never paid for will raise a question.
HMRC have jumped into the 21st century and since 1st April 2009 have radically changed the way they approach tax investigations (see blog for details of this). As you can never be sure of anyone's identity online, how do you know who is asking if you will barter, and what paperwork will be involved?
The worst tax investigation I have ever been involved in was for a taxi firm in London who had a driver that didn't book a late night fare to Heathrow - no doubt thinking no-one would know. A couple of years later the firm was investigated and a simpe question was asked about why a fare on a certain night wasn't in the company books - you guessed who the fare was by now? yes, the Tax Inspector. If one hole like that is opened up in your business records, HMRC will drive a coach and horses through all your records and assume there are many such missing entries.
That is why an exchange of paperwork (invoices at least) for a barter costs each side involved nothing at the time, but makes absolutely sure that no-one can later question the transaction as being anything other than totally correct.
I can only point out what you should do. If you do it or not it's entirely your own affair - just know what consequences can be had from omissions in your records.
These are excellent points, Ray. I could've sworn I'd thanked you yesterday but I must be mistaken - it was getting late at the time.
Now there's a great idea - an exchange of invoices, and put everything through the books. That would work. I would be perfectly happy to do that. From your suggestions elsewhere, you're probably already aware that we personally bear deductible expenses because I didn't know we could put them through the books. I have nothing to hide and I don't have a problem with doing things properly.
I'm sure you're right, though - one little hole and they'll be on you. Urggh! For me the worst thing about that would be the time it would take to deal with it. Better, I think, to stay squeaky clean.
It's very good of you to take the time to give us all the benefit of your useful advice. Thanks, again.
I think there is a time and a place for helping each other out, but I think that there are ways to go about it. As people have said, how you approach someone is key to this.
I have been asked a few times to do telemarketing on a commission only basis. However, these approaches have been by private message, pleasantly worded and respectful. I declined as I dont have any spare time to take on this type of work, as I have limited hours at the moment and need to meet my mortgage. If I had a little spare capacity I would have considered it.
However, being a member of several forums, there is always the element that expects everyone else to run their business for them. Free website, free logo, free this, free that, they are a start up, they have no cash, etc etc.
A lot of us are start ups, a lot of us have no cash, but we dont go around asking everyone to give us everything for free. I asked on one forum for prices for a logo, and as some people offered to do it for me at a reduced price, some members complained as it was degrading the work they did at full price. I found this very annoying. In the end I did my own design and my web designer tidied it up for me. I needed a website but didnt have a budget, so persuaded my web designer that he needed to launch a monthly website product in addition to his normal offering :-)
I think the forums are a great place for ideas, for sharing and for helping others out if you can. I have had people offer me assistance with projects without being asked, and without asking for anything in return. I hope that one day I can repay the favour.
As with any aspect of business treat the other person with respect and you will get much further. Jump in and be rude and greedy and you will get nothing.
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Work for me... for nothing!
I've kinda got used to eating every day of the week.
